Dialectical Spiritualism: Thomas Hobbes, Part Three

BY: SUN STAFF - 17.1 2017

Conversations wtih HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, excerpted from  Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy.

IV – RENAISSANCE THOUGHT 
Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679)

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes is called a utilitarian because he accepts a thing only if it's pragmatic or useful.

Srila Prabhupada: That is relative. A child is satisfied if you give him five rupees, but if you give his father five rupees, the man will think, "What is the use of this?" So the utility of five rupees is relative. Hobbes's conception of utility is not the same as Krsna's conception.

Arjuna was thinking that he was speaking like a very learned man, but immediately Krsna told him that he was not (Bg. 2.11). All this is relative. The hog thinks that he is in a comfortable position and is eating very nicely, but he is eating stool and living in garbage. Crows believe one thing, and swans believe another. An imperfect man like Hobbes may believe one thing to be pragmatic, but one who is perfect may consider something totally different to be pragmatic.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes accepted religion only as a practical instrument. He says that it doesn't have any real value as a science but that it may be used by the state to pacify the people or to keep them confused.

Srila Prabhupada: This means that he does not know what religion is. Of course, some people have made religion into a certain type of faith, but actually religion means one's inherent characteristic. Religion is to the living entity what sweetness is to sugar. It is an inherent characteristic that cannot be separated. Every living entity is rendering service to someone. Everyone is subordinate to someone else, or to his senses. It is the characteristic of the living entity to be subordinate and to render service. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, "Surrender unto Me." (Bg. 18.66) That is our first business, but we are too busy trying to become Krsna. Therefore we say, "I am God," or, "You are God," or, "We are all God." The living entity is not the Supreme God, but he is playing that way. When a man is haunted by ghosts, he says many nonsensical things. Similarly, when the living entity is under the clutches of the material energy, he speaks in such a way.

Syamasundara dasa: What about this idea of utility? What do you think of something being accepted only as long as it is useful?

Srila Prabhupada: It is our foolishness that we accept something temporarily useful. Our real desire is to have eternal life. We want something that is eternally useful, but in the material world we are always being frustrated. We want to live here permanently, but nature will not allow this. Even if there is no disturbance in the form of war, we will still not be allowed to remain.

Syamasundara dasa: A utilitarian would say that a thing should be used only insofar as it is required for some time. Then something else can be used, and in this way we can adjust things indefinitely.

Srila Prabhupada: But another point is that no one wants anything to change. Why? People want permanence because they are seeking their eternal, spiritual nature.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes might say that although we may be seeking something eternal, we may employ temporary things just as long as they are useful.

Srila Prabhupada: First of all, we must know what our eternal life is; then we can try to use everything favorable to further that end. Krsna is the ultimate goal, and whatever is favorable in helping us toward Him should be accepted. That is real utilitarianism. For instance, Arjuna said, "What should I do? Kill or not kill? Krsna wants me to kill. All right, I'll kill." This is utilitarianism.

Syamasundara dasa: For Hobbes, the goal is a peaceful society.

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. The goal should be the advancement of Krsna consciousness. Then peace will follow automatically.

Syamasundara dasa: His utilitarianism means the acceptance of whatever is favorable for the preservation of society.

Srila Prabhupada: In any case, society cannot be preserved. So many societies have come and gone. British society. Roman society. Greek society. Only Krsna's society is eternal. Knowing this is intelligence. Nitya-lila pravista. "Now he has entered the eternal society of Krsna." This is what we say when our guru passes away. We are accepting Krsna as the Supreme and glorifying Him here on earth. This same process will go on there in the spiritual sky, in Krsna's abode. However, there it will take place in a perfect way. Here we are just practicing.