The Mystical Pothi Oracle of Achyutananda Das

By editor - 12.9 2015



The sacred oracle (tamra pothi) of Achyutananda Das is a series of blank copper pages. Once a questioner has asked his questions, the answers mystically appear engraved on the blank pages. The following is an interview recorded Wednesday July 29, 1992 between Manamohan Mahapatra (MM) and Pandit Amareswar Mishra (AM), the reader of the oracle, explaining how he came to possess it.

The pothi oracle at Kakatpur had become the center of a sizable establishment. The Kakatpur pandit had held the pothi for more than a decade at the time of our visit. At this time a building had been built outside of the pandit’s village for reading the pothi oracle for people who had come from various distances. When we arrived, the building was surrounded by people waiting for their turn to consult the pothi. They told us that some had been in the village waiting for several days to get in.

MM: This pothi which you have got, when did you get it.

AM: The first pothi I got on September 11, 1978.

MM: The first means which one? The one which the people open or which one you read?

AM: I got five pothis. [from] Konaraka [i.e. from Arta Baba at Konarak].

MM: From which place?

AM: In Konarak we have an abadhuta [a sadhu who eats fish, meat, dry fish, everything; abadhuta is a gruhi sanyasi] ashram, whose mahanta [head] maharaj now is Arta Baba, Artabandhu [Arta means all desperate people; bandhu means friend] Das.

MM: Arta Baba?

AM: First five pieces I got from his ashram.

MM: To get the pothis there, did you get any direction [nirdesh]?

AM: Direction? No, no such direction. At first I was a Devi worshipper [pujaka]. I am the purohito of the Goddess. After doing my puja there, once I got swapna desha from the Goddess — go to Konarak, where you will get a valuable [amulya = priceless, thing = jinisa]. I heard such things twice or thrice, but did not give importance to it. In ’78 September, I went there. After reaching there I stayed in the matha. Arta Baba, who is now staying there, gave me many pothis. All these pothis were bound together in a red cloth. I said, what is this? “There is direction from the guru to give you these pothis.” So I opened the pothis and read. Then my suspicion [sandeha] arose on those pothis. Because of what? In those, many definitions have been written; in some place it is written, you give blood [rakta] sacrifice and then open the pothi [that means the first time you open the pothi, you give blood sacrifice]. In some other place it is written, give rice [bhata, anna (rice) bali; bali is sacrifice] sacrifice, in some place it is written, recite this mantra for so many times and open it. Like this, it is written. I had suspicion on those. I said, these are all a tantra set [a set of tantra pothis]. I said, what shall I do with these tantra pothis? So out of fear, I did not bring those pothis. He forced me very much. When he forced me very much, by selecting five pothis from the lot, I brought them. One of those is Mahapurusha Achyutananda Das Ugala [find translation — bar or barrier.[Om Doal Purnami day the Gopalas do that, by singing songs and holding out their arms they restrict the movement of others — two groups will come — one group will come form one side and another from another, they will sing and restrain each others’ movements]

MM: Gopala’s Ugala? [Achyutananda Das wrote a book called Gopala Ugala].

AM: Aagya. Another piece was Silpi [artist] Ratna Samhitha (or Sanghita). [means this book is a jewel to the artists]. In which matters relating to art science, house measurement, etc., are done.

[MM note: In Orissa, in the past and now particularly in the villages, when some one wants to construct a house, first he goes to the person who possesses this pothi. He comes and examines the earth and gives the plan of the proposed house. Why? Basuki is a naga, on his hood, he holds his earth. One’s house should stand on the hood of Basuki, otherwise the house will collapse, or misfortune will come to the family, those who live there.] Another pothi is Jyotisha Ratnabali. I brought that jyotisha pothi eagerly (agraha -re) because [karana] I have read jyotish [astrology] before. I brought that because that will help me. Then another piece [khanda] was there in the lot and I brought that. It was sadharana prasna patala [a book in which everything are tied together] [general questions book]. Then there was another piece, Durga sodasa [sixteen] kabacha [talisman — the square ones] [the pujas for Durga]. We are Devi worshippers, I thought [bhabiba] in sodasa patala, there must be some more puja matter of the Goddess. Then I brought that.

MM: Are all these books written by Achyutananda Das?

AM: Aagyan. I brought all these pothis and the rest I returned him. I said, I am a family man [gruhi], I fear to take these pothis with me. He told me, if you do not want to take the other pothis, you keep those near the guru and go. In spite of that, I kept those there [left it there with Arta Baba]. I can not understand anything, why shall I take those? “He told me to give you. If you do not want to take it, keep it near him. Why shall I disobey [or violate] the [order of] the guru [guru drohi].” After bringing the pothis, I went through those minutely. I could not understand anything. I liked that Ugala pothi very much. By reading the Ugala several times, hundred page pothi, I got by heart everything [mukhasta = put those in my mouth — i.e., can sing those any time.] I feel it to be good (I like that). There were many knowledgeable (janiba katha) things in it. I brought that one. I also brought the jyotish one. All other pothis were also with me.

I am the purohito of the Goddess temple. While doing my puja there, many sadhus and sanyasis [connotation is that the sanyasi is a higher grade — and is a wandering mendicant] also come. Those Babajis and Vaisnavas come, I arrange their food and lodging. Sitaram Das, a sadhu, came here from Puna. He was speaking Hindi. He was a naked sadhu [means he has only one loincloth] [languli]. No clothing on him. Like this, a sadhu came. Everyone asks him several things in the temple. He once told me, Son [Pua], everyone are asking me many things, why don’t you ask me anything [pachariba = ask]? You have served me a lot. “What shall I ask you? All these things they are asking and asking, these are mingled with by own body. I have no more interest to ask anything.” He once told me, “Why you will ask? There is proudness [aham = ego] in you. Millions of people will ask me, why shall I ask him? Because of your egoism, you don’t ask me anything.” I couldn’t understand anything [i.e. what the sadhu meant]. I said, “Aagya, I do not have any such thought in me. {The sadhu says} “You fool [buddu = Hindi, fool], the valuable pothi of Mahapurusha which you have with you, millions of people will come to you to ask many things to that pothi. But you don’t know that. Therefore I told you that.” So I thought, how could he know about this. Because nobody has yet known about this. The pothis are there in the temple tied together. Even I have not brought those to my house, out of fear.

[Pothi] The builing at the Kakatapur ashram where the pothi is read. The
people on the verandah are all waiting for their turns to consult the pothi.

MM: Holding that —

AM: After that I brought the pothi and showed him. Our temple executive officer, Prafulla, I and he [the sadhu], we all saw the pothi. After showing him, he explained me some of it after reading. Even drawing in chalk. I liked that very much [bhala lagila = felt it to be very good.] Then I kept him for two more days and learned the `theories’ [in English] from him. After I learned those, he left. He gave me his address. No, no, he didn’t give me his address, he told me, my address is not necessary, I shall come in the year 1991. He only told me that, my ashram is in Puna and in ’91, I shall come to see you. If you go there, you won’t find me. I do not stay at one place. Then he went away. After that, I started the pothi according to that theory. After knowing one and then another new things, my interest [agraha] also increased. There was one sadhana in that. I did that sadhana. Our priests they all cooperated with [saha joga] me. They encouraged [uchhahita] me very much. They said, “You go ahead with your sadhana.” I also did the sadhana there in the temple. The priests remained near me. The sadhana was that for 37 days I shall stand on one leg, not eating, not drinking.

MM: English — He was standing on one leg without any food or anything.

AM: Then after 37 days I got a direction [nirdesha = mandate] from the Goddess that, you go to Konarak. At that time it was 3:15 AM. Of course, I have not seen anything. Of course [abasya] I remember a bright light [ujala light]. And from that light came a sound [abaja]. “Why are you falling here, [padichu]?” Go to Konarak. If you go to Konarak your desire [manas kamama] will be fulfilled [purna heba]. How shall I go? Again she said, “Go, why are you sitting here.” Again she said, “You can not stay here for a minute even. Go quickly [sighra pala]. At that time my left leg, after standing for a long period, my thigh [penda] and knee [anthu] have become equal has become equal (in size) by swelling [phuli kari]. I have no condition for walking. I went there with great difficulty [bahu kaste maste]. Those people watching me were asleep. I wrote a letter to them and went.

MM: How far is that place from here?

AM: Eleven kilometers. Going there by walking, I went up to Kundhei with great difficulty. Even tears [luha] were flowing [bahuta bahiba] from my eyes in a stream (dhara dhara hoi). I sat down leaning against [auji kari] a Kendu tree. I slept. I do not know anything else. Some one came and grasped my arm and shook [halai dela] it. My entire body [sarira] everywhere — veins [sira] and capillaries prasira] [chahali gala] rippled [vibrated]. Then I thought [mu bhabiba], I should go to Konarak. When shall I go? Then I walked. After that, I have not felt any pain [kasta]. When I reached there, Mahanta Maharaj is washing [muha dhoiba] his face, upon getting up from the bed. He also prepared before [i.e he was prepared for me before I came]. When he saw me, he said, “Why it was so late? You should have reached here by twelve or one o’clock. Why it was so late?” He said, “There is a straw bed in that room. Go and sit there.” After I surrendered myself [trahi padiba = full prostration]. [As in trahi Achyuta], I got the direction. I could not understand anything. Then I wrote all those things on a piece of paper and gave that to Mahanta Maharaj, who was watching me there [when Amara Misra was sleeping on that straw bed, Arta Baba was there looking after him.]

I gave him everything in writing. “I have got the direction to go into the Ganga sagar [tank or ocean]. I do not know which is Ganga Sagar. How shall I go inside that? If Ganga sagar will be the sea, then I do not know how to swim. How shall I go there in this condition? I am not able to go, help me.” He then said, “Don’t worry [byasta hua nahi]. Ganga Sagar is not the sea [samudra]. We have one well [bamphi] here, it’s name is Ganga Sagar. If you are not able to go there, I will go by [khandhei kari] putting you on my shoulder.” I feared. He said, “Son, don’t fear.” He is a very strong [majabhuta] man [loka]. Then that was done [lit. that happened]. By that time form our Kakatapur, about 5000 reached Konaraka. Even in twenty to twenty-five vehicles young boys and girls, ladies, have gone there. He took me inside that [well] and stood me there. My leg became dysfunctional So I sat down. There was not much water there, only up to the chest. There I felt that someone is pulling me inside. Then, out of fear, I caught hold of and embraced him [kundhei kari dharili].

He said, “Why do you fear? If God has any wish [udesha], why shall you or I fear?” Like this, he explained me [bujhaile] many things. Then I stood up. Then Arta Baba said, “You leave me [chhadide], you go in. If you hold me nothing will be done.” Then I left him. After I was submerged [budiba] in the water, what happened, I do not know. I do not know where I have gone, what I have done. The people, those were above (on the ground), they say that after seventeen minutes, I came up. My experience [anubhuti] inside that is that I am walking in a very narrow path where if you will be a little careless [asabadhana], both your shoulders will touch [the walls]. The direction was, whatever things are there on the bull’s [sandha] head [munda], you will only bring those. I saw on top of the head of the bull, not one, but many, pothis have been kept. I had the direction to bring one. But out of greediness [lobha] I brought two. I held both in two hands and came. When I came up and saw one was a pothi and the other was a stone. Now the copper pothi in which answers come.

MM: All those pothis bound or open?

AM: No, no, fully bound. It was bound and kept there. But what I remember, both were pothis. Not a stone. Then I thought, God’s direction was to bring one but out of greediness I brought two. So this happened. Then they told me (those who were present above), Throw that stone in the water. Then the pothi came.

MM: When you brought that pothi, at that time, inside that house, was there any person [loka] or any animal [jiba jantu] there?

AM: No, I have not seen anything like that, only a narrow light and very narrow path. To my knowledge, I have remembered this much inside. The people, those who went there, they told me, when we have got the pothi of Mahapurusha, we all take it to our village in a procession [padajatra] and we all walk. We will not go in the vehicles. Then we came by reciting the name of God [nama sankirtana] [Hare Krishna, Hare Ram]. After examining [anudhyana] that pothi, it was written there that the equivalent [anusangika] pothis of this are at such and such place. There are nine pothis in Sarangajadi in the house of Prafulla Misra. Our Satyabadi Misra, who lives in Puri has five pothis in his house. Then it was written, Belamalia ashram in Jajpur where there are 27 pothis. There are three in Nemala Bata [Banyan tree]. In this pothi, only this much was written. First I went to Satyabadi Misra. Whatever he told me, my heart was full broken [mo mana pura bhangigala = broken].

MM: He is a different [abhagia — not straight, won’t help in straight forward way] type of person. [He is deaf also]

AM: Aagya, He didn’t show us good behavior [bhala byabahara]. He said, In this age you told me a blind belief [andha biswasa]. If somebody told you like this, he should also have told me such and such person will come, and you will give him. I said, there is no such direction to me. You read this pothi. “Why shall I read that? If I am to give you, some one must have told me such and such person will come, you will give him. Nobody has told me like that. Then after understanding everything, he told me, “Oh, what is pothi, that is not within my knowledge. I am staying here in Puri for the last 40 years. I have no touch with my house [means in the village]. There is no pothi in our house. These Babajis [Babaji phabaji], after smoking ganja write such things. This must be something like that.” From that my mana [heart] was broken.

Then from there I returned. I did not go to anybody. At that time people have already inquired of this pothi. Then when I inquired of the pothi, Mahapurusha replied, all right, time will come when that man will bring you the pothi. Don’t worry [byasta hua nahi]. After 20 to 25 days, once in the evening [sandhya] Satyabadi Misra, Pravakara Misra of Sakigopal, Asuthosha Misra, a professor of the Sanskrit college, etc. — four or five people, came and reached my house. At that time, I am preparing to come home from the ashram. After reaching there they said, “Pandite, your version [katha] was correct. Now I have come. I have not come here but some one has sent me here, saying, go and donate [dana] pothis to the pandit. Then we sat there. After sitting there and discussed many things, good and bad [basikari bahuta dukha sukha helu]. They told me to recite [boliba] Malika. I sang [boliba] the Malika. Then told me, let’s go. Now I have been directed [nirdesha] to give you the pothi. Then we went to his house and he gave me the pothi. While carrying those pothis with me, we came to Prafulla Misra’s house at Sarangajadi. We saw him to be absent in the house. He is a civil servant [chakiria]. An instructor in the ITI college in Puri.

Then we went to Puri. We told him all these things. He said, what is there in my house, I do not know. Many days ago, my father got a box from the river floor. What is there in it, we don’t know. Every day [sabudina] he worships that [puja karanti]. He said at the time of his death, when that many will come, whatever is there in that, he will appear at the examination [parikshya deba] and he will take it [neba] [i.e. will prove his identity, then he will take it]. After the death of our father, we do not even touch that box. Only for that box, we can not construct that house. As our father said, we only give a little water and flower on that box. I presume [dharana] there may be some pothi in it. If there is nothing in it, we have no pothi in our house. If there is the instruction of Mahapurusha, I think pothis are there in the box. Then we came. For many days, the pothis are there in that box. When we lifted the box up, we found there is nothing at the bottom of the box [i.e. The bottom of the box fell apart]. White ants have also eaten some of the pothis. The nine pothis that were there for me were not destroyed [nasta hoi nahi]. In that pothi my name, my father’s name, name of my village, etc. were mentioned. Aagya, there were four prasna [questions] there in the pothi.

In a big palm leaf [tala patra], it was written, anybody who can answer [uttara] these four questions, he will take these pothis. Prafulla Misra said, We do not know anything about this. If you know anything, please tell us. Then I said, Such and such will be the answer. Then I brought the pothi and came. Then immediately I went to Nemala. {Where Achyuta attained samadhi under a banyan tree]. In Nemala they gave me everything without and hesitation [nirdwanda]. After bringing those from Nemal, I again went to Belamalia in Jajapur. His was a broken [bhangaruja] math. Many pothis are there. Prataprudra Das is the Mahanta there. When he heard everything, read the pothi, saw all these writings, he said, “We are all the people of that Mahapurusha. If he has said, then we have nothing to deny [aswikara]. Whatever you want to take, take in your own hand. After bringing those pothis [idiom: “the pothi walked”], the pothi was active.

Pandit Amareswar Mishra reading the tamra pothi in his Ashram.
The tamra pothi of Mahapurusha Achyutananda is handled by
him on the instructions of Baba Shri Buddhanath Das.

MM: English — After he brought the pothi from Konarak, it revealed form the pothi that you visit these persons from whom you will get many pothis. He contacted all those persons and got pothis.

AM: Then in another pothi it came out to do sadhana.

MM: Where do you keep these pothis after you brought those?

AM: First when the pothis were brought, there was no permanent place. So I kept those in the Mangala temple. When my fear [bhaya] went away, I built a Thakura Ghara [a prayer room] in our village. At that time there was no ashram. When the pothi from Belamalia came, it was written there that the ashram of Mahapurusha was there in Charakapada [the name of the place where the present ashram stands].

MM: Which is Charakapada?

AM: Now where our ashram has been constructed, that was the ashram of Charaka Rishi. [Near the pole star there are five other stars, atri, angira, basistha, charaka, etc. Charaka rishi was a muni and he had his ashram there where the pothi ashram stands in Kakatpur.] That was the ashram of Charaka Rishis, so the ashram of Mahapurusha will be renovated [punarudhara] there. So I showed the pothi to the landowner [jami balaku]. How that will be done? That is a private land. So I took the pothi and showed it to that landowner. That landowner was very happy [khusi hela = glad] and said yes. “The portion of land which you intend [kahuchhanti = you are saying] to take, I have purchased that land 40 years back. When I am trying to plow the land, at that time some obstacles [pratibandhaka] are coming so that I am unable to plow the land. Once a Babaji came here and told me not to plow this land. One good thing will be done here. You leave [chhadide] this place [leave it alone]. So I have left that land. There were five bel trees on that land a and there is no other thing. If you say, one sadhu told me, so take it if you will construct. The land is only two gunthas [unit of measurement]. Can an ashram be built on two guntha of land?” He was reluctant [kunthita hele] to give a little more land. When he was reluctant, we told him we’d give money. By taking 11,000 rupees, he gave us five gunthas of land. Then the ashram was constructed there and pothi was kept there.

MM: When you took the pothi to that place, did you arrange any puja?

AM: Aagya.

MM: Whatever puja you did, that was the direction of the pothi?

AM: Yes, by the direction [nirdeshare] of the pothi, everything has been done.

MM: Then there must be some instruction to you by the pothi that you will open [pothi kholiba] this pothi in this way [ae pari bhabare]?

AM: Yes, pothi has the niyama [rules] how to open [kholiba], how to do puja. Each pothi has its own niyama. In the preface [mukha =face; bandha] all those niyama are.

MM: Have all the pothis a mukha bandha?

AM: Aagya. All the pothis have mukha bandha [preface].

MM: English — Pothi has a preface in which it has been mentioned clearly how you will open the pothi, for opening a pothi, what you will do. And he opened this pothi according to that instruction.

AM: In that for me there was a sadhana to do. I did that sadhana inside the ashram. That sadhana is of course related to [tantra sambandhia] tantra. After that I got the direction that, you will get a silver [rupa] pothi in Gupteswar.

MM: Where is Gupteswar?

AM: Gupteswar is located in Koraput. It is 60 kilometers away from Jaipur. How shall I get it [miliba], what will be done? Preparations [sambandhare prastuta paragala] were made and I went there. I did sadhana in the Gupteswar cave for eleven days. After eleven days sadhana, what happened, a Kondh boy, holding the pothi, reached there and gave. I could not understand his speech [katha = speech; barta = message]. Whatever we asked him he replied to. But we could not understand anything. He spoke in his language, we could not [bhuji parilu nahi] understand.

MM: He must have spoken in Kui language [ the Kondh language].

AM: That speaking, we could not understand even one paisa [i.e. one percent]. Then he went to the forest [jungle] laughing and laughing [hasi hasi kari; hasiba = laughing]. I can’t tell anything about him.

MM: Okay, then you brought the pothi and came here and afterwards have started that [arambha kari thibe]. You opened [kholi chhanti] in ’71 or some other date?

AM: From ’78.

MM: Many people must have come to you to this place? Those who are coming here, they are coming with definite [nirdishta] questions, getting the answers of the questions. Suppose [mane karantu] a person is ill [asustha], he came here; will the pothi arrange [byabastha] any medicine [ausadha] for him?

AM: If the question will be in connection with any disease [roga], its medicine will come. Medicine means all suckers [chera] roots [roots]. Aagya, only tubers and roots [chera muli], nothing else.

MM: English — Pothi also prescribes medicines. Medicines means only Ayurvedic medicine, roots, fruits, leaves, etc.

AM: Like this we have burning examples [jwalanta = burning pramana][blazing examples]. Still that man is alive, a cancer patient [rogi], even he has come back from Delhi Medical. They have also been cured here. Many paralysis patients [paralysis rogi] also [madhya] have been cured [bhala hoi acchanti]. There are many examples like this. But one thing is that, all these medicines which come, there is not much [bisesa karcha nahi] expenditure of money, but it requires concentration [ekagrata].

MM: First believe [biswasa], then do what I am telling you, and after that you enjoy [bhoga kariba].

AM: Aagya.

MM: If one does not do anything but will say that overnight my house becomes a palace, such person, should not come here.

AM: Same disease [ekaroga], samana ausadha [same medicine], one half [adha] say half was cured and half remained like that. Some are saying we were fully cured after using the medicine for some days. Some say that it did not work on us. If the reason is that lack of their concentration [ekagrata], and carelessness [heyagyana]. Thousands of rupees were spent, it did not work. This is a simple leaf, root, will it be cured with this? Let us see, eat that for two to four days. If they are thinking like this, nothing will happen. This is the story [katha].

MM: In this connection, Achyutananda Das says, “Why one is cured and the other is not? ‘The rat is inside the drum.’ What does it mean? [mane kana]. I tell him to eat mango but if he eats lemon, how will the disease be cured.”

AM: Hanh Sahib. There is rule [niyama] in what way you will use the pothi. You should not accept money from anybody’s hand. Do not say that, “You give me this much.” Whatever he will give on his own, that you spend in different [anya] works [karma]. The person who will use this pothi every day will get a remuneration [parisramika]. The rest will be used in my work. He has his own works; one is Udaya Bata, another is Kataka Jobra, One is Gadoi near Machhagaon [i.e. He should also contribute some of his money for the development of these places; Achyuta is connected with these places]. An ashram will be constructed in Khandagiri. Like this I have been assigned with many works. It has its own ‘routine’ which money will be spend in which thing. Aagya, all these things are written, how he will spend money in what way.

MM: If we will come any time, will you please show us that writing?

AM: Aagya.

MM: Now you have some difficulties [asubhida].

AM: If you come some other time, you can see everything.

MM: English — Nancy, in the pothi it is mentioned that anybody who will visit you to open the pothi, do not demand anything from them. Whatever they give you, keep it. Whatever you get, you take only your wage from that because you are spending the whole day to read the pothi. You take 20-30 rupees towards your wage and spend the rest in the different ashramas.

MM: Oriya — Aagya, we are Hindus, we believe in [biswasa] our previous birth [purba janma]. We are enjoying the fruit [bhoga kariba phala] of this life, taking into consideration the good or bad deeds in our previous birth. Anything in this connection [sambandhare] comes out [bahare] in the pothi. Whether the inquirers are told about this? Do you tell any such thing to the inquirer?

AM: Like this, many people question that, what was my previous birth? Each answer will come that in your previous birth you were the son of such and such persons and born in such and such places. You were born in such and such place and such and such were your karma [doings[. Like this it comes. For some good comes, bad comes for others [or it comes out good for some, bad for others.].

MM: Suppose a patient has come, he is suffering from paralysis, any such thing has come out for him that, in your previous birth, you kicked your superiors [guru jana]?

AM: Aagya. Many, many.

MM: For that does it come in the pothi that the man should undergo expiation [prayaschita]?

AM: It remedy comes [tara remedy bahara].

MM: Do you give those things in writing to them?

AM: Aagya, Hanh.

MM: If anybody comes again to open the pothi, not observing the previous directions [nirdesha], does the pothi get annoyed [birakta] with him?

AM: No, not at anybody. It comes for some others that, your past culture [sanskruti] and jatismara guna [caste qualities] were not correct. You can not go forward in this line [tume e batare = line age = front pariba nahi], you will stay in the [adhare] half (or middle). You will have to enjoy the fruits of your fate [bhagya]. To call bad names, speak badly, etc., does not come in the pothi.

MM: Pothi undergoes rest [vishram]. What is the meaning of vishram [vishram mane kana?]?

AM: Vishram means not script [akshyara] will come. Only three letters, ‘BI’ then ‘SRA’ and ‘MA’ will come. The meaning of that is this. The meaning of that is the person who gives the answer is unwilling [araji]. My experience [anubhuti] says that we again and again ‘charge’ a power [shakti] to speak something, we ask what will be its answer. We ask Him what will be its answer. As a man becomes disinterested [bitaspruha], like that after answering several times, that power has not interest [agraha nahi] to give the reply [uttara deba pai]. I told you my experience.

MM: Your pothi is made of copper [tamba]? Is there writing on it always?

AM: Not at all [jama nahi]. Only on each page there is — there are 84 pages in it — in each page there is a jantra.

MM: On each page both sides there is no letter, only different types of jantra.

AM: Jantra is there in each page and that its main thing [mukhya jinisa] which gives the reply.

MM: Is there any direction to you how script comes on the pothi and how it is erased [libhiba]?

AM: There is not such instruction. Only that is written there. That day perhaps I was showing that to you.

MM: No, you showed that to me, I told you to read.

AM: Its main object was [barnamala] a string [garland, mala] of syllables. There is a jantra in it in which all the 24 syllables from ‘A’ to ‘Kshya’ [khya] are written on it. For that it is ‘composed’. Sir, when there is no seed [manji (but same as bija),] how can we think of a tree [gaccha]? If there is no barna [letter, syllable] how can barna [color] come? Syllable [barna] is there, matra [diacritic mark] is there [the vertical line behind the syllable that changes the value of the vowel]. That matra is composed there afterwards.

MM: Is there any such direction to you that whatever comes on the pothi, that Achyuta speaks? I am sending this message [barta] from the Goloka Puri.

AM: Aagya. That will come in the answer of all questions. You must have marked that [lakshya kari thibe]. First it will come that Mahapurusha is speaking. At the end it will also come that [“illiterate” or without sense] [agyani Achyuta] speaks, “Cruel [[pamara] Achyuta speaks.”

MM: Millions [lakshya lakshya] of people must have come to the pothi. Please speak in short [sankshyepare] what type of questions they put to the pothi.

AM: Hanh, Aagya. Ten people in a hundred are [adhatmika badi] devotional; then to examine [parikshya] the pothi, 25 in one hundred are coming; Being in difficulty, [Asubhidare padi], forty out of one hundred come. Some others say, let us go and see what is happening there. With this in mind, ten people in a hundred come [satakada dasa]. Among them, there are gentlemen [badra loka], thieves [chora], bandits [dacoit], also there are ‘murderers’. So different types [bibhina kisamara] are coming here.

MM: Have any such people come whose reply has not come in the pothi?

AM: Aagya.

MM: Why does this happen?

AM: This happens for this [reason], that the people come to Mahapurusha to examine [test] him [parikshya]. Those people face this more.

MM: Achha. When I came here that day, no script came the first time. Then I remembered [smarana] Thakura [the God, the Lord], then script [lekha] came. You said, we will open it again. Did that happen to me for that (reason).

AM: I am telling you my experience [anubhuti]. If you have the intention [manobruti] to examine it, such things happen. People do not get their reply. Even by opening the pothi for 8 to 10 times, nothing will come.

MM: But mine came in one. All the questions and some more also came.

AM: Aagya.

MM: Whatever comes in the pothi, has that ever been false [michha hoichi]?

AM: Yes it has.

MM: Why it has been false?

AM: Those who come here with the intention to test and they do not follow [kari nahanti] the directions correctly. It has been only for them. I am telling you my experience. There are many questions on marriage. Some of them get exactly the right answer. But some others get half or their answer and the other half they do not get. Some do not get the answer. The main reason for this, is that this it is not ‘mesmerism,’ nor mantra, jantra and tantra. It is a thing of devotion [bhakti bhaba]. So one thing is, how the Sunya Shakti will give the reply, unless our concentration reaches Him. Whatever is our intention [bhaba], we will get the reply accordingly. But it is said in Bhagavata

“Ja mana jepari,
ta pain separi,
phala rakhitae biswa [world].
ucha mana,
ucha adarsha [ideal] lobahi [gets],
nicha mana lobhe [gets] bisa [poison].” —

“Whatever is your mana [mind, desire,
For him like that [separi]
the universe retains the result
higher mind gets a high ideal
low mind gets poison.”

So whatever is your [bhaba] thought, Mahapurusha gives you the reply accordingly. Those who will not be successful Mahapurusha gives them the reply with a cheating intention [thakiba = cheating, devious; manobrutire = intention], just to put you in confusion [baula = confusion; tumaku baulare pakaiba pain]. Because of that man will be put in confusion, he will again come. We have questioned the pothi several times that, you said such thing will happen, but why it happened in the other way? We have got the reply for that. This was his intention. Then many other times similar replies have come, that if I don’t tell him like this then he will kill himself [atma hatya = kill]. He has come here with the intention of doing that. To save his mind, I have given this reply. Achha, in order to save him [karibaku rakshya].

MM: Achha, Aagya. I did not have any such thing in my mind.

AM: But one thing is that, when that reply will come, while I am reading the pothi, I can know that which will take place, and that which will not. Mahapurusha speaks with a twist [pencha = screw]. Still then with a double meaning [di adaku paila bhali = as if it will be appreciated by two sides. If you analyze [anadhyana] those [words] minutely [bisesa bhabe], its ‘yes’ answer will be ‘no’. But the people will understand it yes, but the result will be different.

MM: We thought of two questions on that day. The Lord [Thakura] gave us two replies. He said another one relating to me [samparkare = relating to me], my son’s education, daughter’s marriage, everything he told me one by one. I do not know how far that will be true. What shall I do? When that time will come automatically [ape ape] that will happen, or will I have to do anything else?

AM: As for the daughter’s side, definitely we will have to search [for a groom]. Then we will do our duty. But that will be the result.

MM: Achha. People must have been coming here to know about theft [chori]?

AM: Daily four or five days such cases come. At first I was reading many theft questions. But it was seen that there was one Patnaik Babu subinspector here. Once there was a theft in this locality, one bag of paddy [dhana] and one bag of kolatha [legume used for cattle feed]. What happened in that case, both the villages came to hard blows [badia pita]. I was called to the police station and stayed there for three days. Till the end I did not know the reason. But I had become the first party in the case. After three days they told me you call your [Jaminidar] bailer. [I said] Why? By doing this you have brought these tow villages to blows. Because he knew me before, they seated me inside the room [otherwise those who are detained sit in the verandah]. They told me, make a vow [pratingya] from today that you will never do any theft question any more because when we have any difficulty, we go to you and ask where the dacoit is staying. You tell us but don’t tell it the people because the people will put you in trouble. This is one thing. I also analyzed [anudhyana- that and saw that the thief also showed me his knife [chhuri] on the road, in the case of Vaisnava Subudhi’s house [the house of the theft]. Aagya, did you understand? So, under compulsion [badhya hoi] I closed it [banda kari deli]. Even though I closed that, again in some cases I am doing it. Where the inquirer is my own man [mo nija loka][one of my own], and will keep this though safely [biswasa rakshya kai pariba], I am doing it in that case. Sometimes people open the pothi on theft case, without asking me. Still then, when I read the pothi, I shall patch the name of the thief and will read it. I shall read everything but not that.

MM: If you say this unnecessarily there will be quarrels [dwanda] among the people. Whatever a man has thought in himself, that comes in the pothi. What do you think about how this comes?

AM: I was telling you the story of this barnamala jantra. Another thing is that Mahapurusha is sunya dehi. He is staying in Sunya. His spirit we bring here through mantra. This is because, you might be seeing that the pothi is kept [thua] on a jantra [which on a brass plate]. And with a chalk, mantra is applied to the pothi. Now the mantra remained on it. Then jantra, mantra. That pothi — That copper pothi that you have seen is full of [pura] tantra. There are all [gudaka] jantras in the pothi. So jantra, mantra, tantra, when these three become one, at that time that Sunya Shakti is coming. It is He who speaks.

MM: How long the script remains in the pothi after it is read out?

AM: The pothi, when you pick it up, the writing will go away. After the question ends, when lift up the pothi, the writing will go. For that because there are some rules [niyama]. If one mantra has been applied to the pothi, another can not be applied at the same time.

MM: Many types of questions we make in the pothi, about job, marriage, quarrel.

AM: Even [epariki] untold things among the husband and wife are asked to the pothi. Today’s [aji kalika = nowadays] sons and daughters, which things can not be asked, are asking to the pothi. It’s answer is also coming.

MM: Achha, why do you close the door when you read the pothi?

AM: What the people are doing there. I can not read if the shadow of a person will fall on my lens. Another thing, before I was reading the pothi on the outside. There was a complaint from among the people that, why others will hear our question. For these two reasons we closed the door. By closing the door I could sit peacefully.

MM: How many people come here every day?

AM: Many. But all do not get their reply. At most 25 to 30 people will go. Some of the pothis are here, some at my home and I carry the main things with me always because there will be question- answer in the pothi after daily abhisheka [puja]. Daily I do Rudra abhisheka [puja to Siva]. Otherwise, no answer will come.

MM: Achyutananda Das is a Vaisnava.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: All the Vaisnava writings such as Vishnu Sahasra Nama, Asta Gurjari, Nava Gurjari, and all these [e sabu, etc.] is their any nirdesha to read all these?

AM: Aagyan. Those adhyatmika badi persons put questions, many put questions like that: Who is my guru; some put question that you give me some mantra. Some put the question that, I have no desire [akankshya] for anything, by going on which path shall I get the road to liberation [mukti] [006 ?]. In areas [kshetra] like this [bhali] they all come. Asta Gurjari, mane mantra, or any beneficial thing [upadesa, beneficial, useful]. That depends [nirbhara] on the [upare] wish [swechakruta; own desire] of the Mahapurusha.

MM: Until today, has any mantra come out for the inquirers in your pothi?

AM: Aagyan.

MM: You were given [diagala] the mantra. Do japa with the mantra for so many times.

AM: It has been given.

MM: Those who are given the mantra, they must be getting some direction before that, “You will be given a mantra. You come after doing this work.”

AM: Nothing like that has come, as per my experience [anubhuti]

MM: You come one such day, you will given a mantra. Or is it given immediately?

AM: No, the inquirer has asked for the mantra. If the mantra will come, it will never come in the copper plate pothi. It will refer to Mantra Mahadadhi, such and such page; you give the mantra in such and such chapter [adhyaya] to the inquirer.

MM: According to the pothi, do you observe any ekadasi, the birthday celebration of Achyutanandam or ucchaba or Mahostaba?

AM: Aagyan. There is one for Mahapurusha, Magha Sukla Ekadasi [11th day in the bright half of Magha; associated with he birthday of Achyutananda], Jyestah Sukla Ekadasi [the death ritual of Achyutananda], Netra Uchhaba [the day prior to the car festival of Puri; Netra means eye; the newly constructed car is purified; Neta is flag; the flag is also put to the top of the car; but people call it Netra also; the car is given life on that day], then Dola Purnami [swing festival, since Achyutananda is the incarnation of Vishnu].

MM: Do you observe Rasa? [Rasa Lila of Krishna]

AM: I go to Nemala during the nitya [daily] Rasa. Aagyan, Rasa is held once in the month of Kartik and in the month of Vaishak.

MM: In our Orissa, the pothi of Achyutananda Das have been found in many places. You might be knowing in which places those have been gotten?

AM: Aagyan. One is in our Kakatapur. Bhagavana Misra at Surat. Now he is in Puri. It is with him. Bisi Ratha of Sakigopal, he has one. There is another man called Kalandi Misra of Kalia Gorada, a place of Sakigopal. It is with him. Another one is near Balakati. I have not gone there, only heard it from the people.

MM: The pothi is in all these places. Which place near Balakati?

AM: I have only heard, not gone. It is near Balakati. Balakati means Balakati ‘proper’. I have not gone there.

MM: There is a place called Jhinti.

AM: There is Jhinti. That is a big place [bada jaga] but that is not the pothi of Mahapurusha. Aagyan. I laid the foundation stone [subha] of that place. But up to that time [se parjyanta], this is what was there: At first that was the pothi of Navaratna Pandita. When he first started it, arranged a fire sacrifice and invited me [dakithile], I went there. At that time it was coming, the analysis [samikshya] of the Navaratna Pandita. When the answers came, it came out that the Navaratna Pandits are speaking. Such and such Navaratna pandit of Bikramaditya [name of the raja; historical raja of early times] is speaking. The answer came like this. Then they brought something from somewhere [another pothi]. Now people say that again it is of Mahapurusha. I do not have any experience of that.

MM: People must be going there.

AM: Many people are going there. Many.

MM: Is that a Sunya pothi?

AM: No, that is not a Sunya pothi. Not of His. That pothi is nothing, only four or five small pothis are there. The answer comes in those. That is [already] written. Answers come in that.

MM: Aagyan. If it is already written, how is it possible [to get answers]? Thousands and thousands of people are going there. Suppose in one pothi there must be fifty pages. How will one writing be for all?

AM: Aagyan, listen. That can be done. When I did not have the tamba pothi, I was doing the prasna in a palm leaf pothi. It was there. It was happening like that. Listen, one thing is that in our society the problems are limited. What? If you calculate those one by one, your problems will be 84 not 85 [chaura asi; pancha asi].

MM: [laughs]

AM: Its reason [tara karana] is that, look, the problems [samasya] are according to the body [sariraku nei]. In our body there are 84 jantras.

MM: Okay. English — Now he is telling about the physiology of man. In a human body, there are 84 jantras.

AM: Aagyan, do you understand? Eighty-four jantras. You see “charma gherichi aba chaurasiki” [“the 84 jantras are covered with skin” [charma (skin) gherichi]. So when we say 84, there are 84 jantras in our body. Those 84 jantras — we have another story. In our villages, you must have heard, “Tara 49 [ana chasa] pabana bahilani” [“His 49 winds are blowing”] [that means the man is about to die; he will die soon]. So in 84 jantras, there are 49 nadis. So six are the chakras. “Adhara linga navau tadupari hrudaye, kantha deshe lalate” [“From [half] the linga, navel, above that, the heart, throat [kantha] deshe [area], the forehead [lalate]. So 84 jantras, 49 nadis and there are the 6 closed [kilini] jantra [the six chakras]. Taking this, these 84 jantras — this body was created taking these 84 jantras. So our bhaga [share, portion], was our 84, not 85. Whatever question you make, it will remain within those 84. It will never be 85. So what happens, there must be 84 pages.

MM: Definitely.

AM: Eighty-four problems will be mentioned. Among the 84 problems [samasya], among those, you will have one. But in that one — This question will not come very clearly. Suppose one asked [pacharila], something of mine has been stolen, who has taken it. For that, the answer will come like this, Amareswar Misra has taken it. His house is in Sri Ram pur. Answers will come like this. But in that one the reply will come that, a man ‘A’ has taken it. His name consists of four letters [chari akshyara heuchhi]. The first letter will be ‘A’. His house is in such and such place [amuka jagare]. Like this it will come. ‘Direct’ answer [uttara] will not come.

MM: Okay, something like this once happened. A gentleman [badra loka] once went to Bhagavan Misra. Some one applied tantra to him. We asked him about it. He said, when we went there, it came out in the pothi. You have been done [prayoga] tantra. If you go to a Musalaman gunia named ‘K’, he will make you all right.

AM: Aagya.

MM: So he reached him after searching. Something like this also happens here?

AM: Yes. No, what happens here, I am a different type [alaga prakara loka] of person. If any such person comes to me, I cure [bhala kari die] him by the force [balare] of my own vidya]. I do not allow him to go to any other person. Because I have done sadhana on three things, mantra, tantra and jantra. So why shall I send them to others?

MM: So you do not have anything like that?

AM: No. The answer will come. Till the answer comes [uttara asiba parjyanta], I don’t allow them to put any further question. That is within my knowledge [gyana bhitare].

MM: If I say, please bring your pothi, we will go to Bhubaneswar or Kataka, please come with the pothi, will you come?

AM: Aagyan. The fact is this, our pothi goes to Kataka, goes to Paradip, goes to Puri, these three places. Because we have built Gadi in these three places. Udayabata Asrhama, that has been built [as ashram of Achyutananda Das in Kataka]. If this pothi of the Mahapurusha will go there, work will be done, so there is a Gadi house there.

MM: Aagyan, where is it in Puri?

AM: In Puri our Mahapurusha has a special Matha.

MM: Is it near Jhadeswari?

AM: Gandharba Matha, near the police line.

MM: Jhadeswari is there near the police line [Jhadeswari is the name of Goddess, a benevolent one, probably Laxmi; primarily a village deity]. There is an Ayurvedic hospital there. There is a big banyan tree [bara gachha] there. That ashrama is situated there.

AM: Aagyan, yes.

MM: Here in this road, when we went, there is a place called Rohini Kunda.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: Do you have any connection [samparka] to that place?

AM: Aagyan. There was not existence [astitwa; asti, bone; twa, flesh] of Rohini Kunda ashram. There was nothing. Ordinarily [sadharana] it fell like this, forest and hunka [white ants nest. First when this pothi came, facts about that ashram came in it. We all went to see that. Then there was nothing. There was a woman called Nagamani Ma, who was neither a male nor a female. She was there at Kataka. All of a sudden [daivat], she arrived near [asi pahanchhile] the pothi. One morning she came here. We had no house here. [Where his present house is, that is not his original village, his village is a little away]. Our house was in the village. When I woke up from the bed, I found her standing, meaning [bole] on one leg, folding her hands this [hataku emiti chhandi (crossed)] arms crossed, at the entrance to my door. Then, seeing her, I feared very much. Why? If you see her appearance, you will also be astonished [rahi jibe; you will be stopped]. The person will be about six hands high [uchha]. The width will be this much [showing with his hands].

MM: Very strong and stout [hrusta (sound heart); prusta (sound body)].

P: No, do we not have any hrusta prusta persons? Again she was such an effulgent person [jyotiban loka], such as I have not seen anywhere [implies that when he looked at her it seemed as though there was light or rays of light coming from her.] A vermilion mark [sindura tipa], one this big [showed with his hand, the size of a small orange] [gote ede bada]. A vermilion tipa was put on [mara hoithiba]. She is Suklambari [“who wears white cloth”; sukla, white; ambari cloth]. She wears white cloth [dhala luga pindhanti]. [Suklambari, refers to a woman, a widow or a sadhu]. I stayed there. She is very polite [namra]. She said, “Baba, I have come here to put a question.” I then said, “Ma, questions are not put here. It is done in the ashram.” At that time the ashram was functioning in a palm leaf [temporary] house [tala (palm) barada (palm leaf) tati (woven together)]. “Go there, I am going.” Then, when I went there, she was sitting. There, she made questions. Then her reply came that, “your place is Rohini Kunda sthana (place)” [a small pond, Rohini, in the form of a crow, saved Vishnu sometimes; in the Jaganath temple compound there is a small structure known as Rohini Kunda]. “Your karma [work] is the renovation of Rohini [Rohini Udhara].” Then many questions were made on that. “What shall we do? How shall we do that?” Then the ashram was constructed there. The Thakura was installed [basile]. A house was built and a fire sacrifice was held. Everything was done. Then this was there. This was how long back? Eighty-five, no eighty-four.

MM: Achha, achha.

Man: There was nothing. Recently [ebe] all this has been done.

AM: It was done in the year 1984.

P’s Mother: We did not know about that place at all.

MM: Yes. If the pothi directs you to go to America — I had been to America.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: Regarding [samparkare] Achyutananda I — I am a professor [adhyapaka; person who teaches]. I went there.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: When I was there, I gave some talks [baktruta — to speak something] on Achyutananda [Achyutananda samparkare] there.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: The people have become very much eager [bahuta agrahi hoichhanti], so suppose if we ask you to come to America, you will do something there. At that time, will you come?

AM: There is nothing to say no. I will ask Mahapurusha first whether, shall I go or not? If he says “You enter into fire”, I will enter.

MM: If it will say that you go with the pustak?

AM: Aagyan.

Man: He will definitely [albata (Hindi)] go.

MM: If you don’t get direction from there, you will not go anywhere?

AM: It came once in a question to go to the Maharaja of Nepal.

MM: Did you put this question? Meaning who [put the question]?

AM: We brought the silver pothi.

MM: You also have a silver [rupa] pothi with you?

AM: Yes. Aagyan. A silver pothi.

MM: He has also a palm leaf made of copper and another is made of silver.

AM: That I got from Gupteswar [in Koraput district] []. I told you.

MM: We have not seen that.

AM: No, you have not seen it.

MM: Don’t you use that?

AM: Aagyan. How shall I use that in this yuga? I am dying with fear [dari maruchhi].

Man: It has come recently. No work has been done.

AM: Anirudha Das kept repeating [japithile], in these times, how shall you use it?

Man: Anirudha Das, the magistrate [laughing].

AM: Nothing will happen.

MM: Everything is done at the direction of the Mahapurusha. Everyone will give you the way [pakhei jibe], Aagyan. Mahapurusha has immense power [apara sakti]. If He has put on you the blessing [asirbada] — .

AM: So, like that, then it [the pothi] took me to Nepal. “Who am I and where is Nepal?” So I wrote a letter to the Maharaja of Nepal in three languages, Hindi, English and Oriya. I wrote that, “For you there is something like this [There is something like this of yours]. If you inform me of when you will be available there [keun samayre rahuchhanti], I shall reach there at that time.” He received the letter and immediately sent his manager. He said to him, “You go to this address. Who is that man; what is case [kana ghatana]. If you are satisfied, make all arrangements [bandobasta] for his visit.” So he came and reached here. On that day I was not here. I was at Kataka. Then he took my Kataka address [thikana] from my home and reached there. When he reached Kataka [pahanchhi], there was the whole discussion [kathabarta sabu hele]. Then, from there, he went. After going, ho told the raja — He fixed our day and went away. Our day to go was agreed [thik hela]. After that he made the passport and everything.

MM: Passport is not needed for us.

AM: No, this train ticket, that is to say, plain ticket [udajahaja].

MM: He did your plane ticket. You got down at Katmandu [jai olahaile, olahaiba]?

AM: Aagyan. When we returned from that place, this was not done. When we went the difficulty was that everybody ate meat [sabe mansa khaile ta bhitare] inside that airplane [unacceptable because of the presence of the pothi]. When we came back, we came in a car.

MM: You came by car?

MM: English — He also went to Nepal. The Raja of Nepal invited him.

MM: Many things must have come about the Raja of Nepal. You took the pothi with you?

AM: Yes, Aagyan.

MM: There the pothi must have been opened?

AM: Yes, yes. I took the pothi, the Raja put questions. Everything about him [tankara sabu]. The Rani also put questions. The Mother of the Raja [Rajamata] also put questions. Everybody.

MM: Were they pleased when the saw?

AM: Yes. [ . . . ] He also gave a pothi which was in the palace.

MM: He gave one? Will that come to any use for you here [kichhi karyare lagiba]?

AM: Yes. It will come into use. Because — of course [abasya] whatever the work is [karya kana], it is a thing which will benefit the people [jana upakara].

MM: By now, you might also be getting the direction [nirdesha] of the Thakura, in the medium [madhyamane] of the dream?

AM: No.

MM: So now, any other thing?

AM: We see dreams always, so that is not a big thing. But one thing is that we are household persons [ghruhi loka]. We are amidst [bhitare] many kinds [bibhina prakara] of rubbish [abarjana; filthy, dirty things like garbage, rubbish], so how shall we get the right thing [thik jinisa]. So whatever we do and see, that is dream. Then that is not good [su, enjoyable, also true] dream [swapna].

MM: That is bad dreams [ku swapna; bad dreams, nightmares].

AM: Aagyan. Because the good [su] dream, that is completely true [ekabele bastaba (true)]. But that which is merely dream [kahli (only) swapna], that is not true [abastaba].

Man: Aagyan, our dream is of three kinds, dream, susakti [good power], and Saurya [enlightenment]. These are the three stages [abastha; stages or conditions] of dreams.

AM: The dream which we see at the time of doing sadhana will be neither this side nor that side [they will be straight, i.e. true]. It is always true [ekabara thik]. Because there is concentration [ekagrata], there is [thae] sincerity [nistha], and all fear, devotion — four things are mixed together [misikari thae].

MM: Now you are using this pothi? You must have some definite rules [nirdishta (definite), niyama], with which rules you will do this every day. What are those rules?

AM: I was telling you the rules. So what are my rules?

MM: Every day by getting up in the morning

AM: After getting up in the morning every day, my first work was my daily ablution [nityakarma, lit. daily work, bathing, hygiene and grooming], puja; while doing this [sath sathi] I also do Rudrabhiseka. This is the direction of the Mahapurusha. The pothi will not work [pothi hebane] if I do not do Rudrabhiseka. The jantra will not remain alive [sajiba (with life) rahiba nahi].

MM: Do you observe Rudrabhiseka in a Siva temple?

AM: No, no. This jantra on which the pothi is kept, the abhiseka is done on that jantra. [abhiseka is by reciting some mantra you will pour some water on Siva; in this case he will put some water in a brass pot and pour that on the jantra. It is an empowerment done for rajas.] Then [tabade] this is, after completing [sariki; sarikare] the abhiseka, I shall complete all the worship of the God. After completing that, p. 13. I do not eat anything on the outside.

MM: Nothing, anywhere?

AM: Nothing anywhere. Even I do not drink water. Whatever I shall offer to the God [jaha puja karitibi], I shall eat that. Then I shall go.

MM: There you have Jaganath in your ashram, an image of Jaganath?

AM: Aagyan.

MM: Is that Jaganath made of wood [katha -re] ?

AM: No, Aagyan, stone [pathara -ra]

MM: Jaganath is not made of stone, Aagyan.

AM: It is there.

MM: Where is it? That is wood image [daru (wood) murti].

AM: Aagyan, listen. In our sastra it is mentioned [sastra-re achhi] “Kasta, pasana, taru, truna — Tanmadhye bije Narayana” [“Wood, stone, tree, grass — Narayana appears (bijaya — victory) within these.” So we are making Jaganath in wood, it is true. But before that, you see the Nila Madhava Murti [the earlier form of Jaganath, in the form of a blue stone] in stone [patharara]. The Nila Madhava is the original thing [mula jinisa]. Then Jaganath has been created. He is made of stone. After that again, you will see, in Kendrapara, there is the image of Jaganath.

MM: [You mean] Baladev Jeu? [Baladev God, the image there is called Baladeva].

AM: Baladeva Jeu is made of stone. Then there are many made of stone in Balangir. In the raja’s palace [raja batire] of Balangir there is the image of Jaganath. Jaganath, Balabadra, Subadra. There three images are of stone. Like that, it is many places. [Balangir is a district in eastern Orissa, north of Puri district]. Because, whoever can perform the Nava Kalevara [“New Body”] —

MM: Those are of wood.

AM: They will construct it in wood. Those who will worship it at home, they will make it from grass [form a murti in grass] — those who will keep those as house deity [gruha devata]. Then, the stone images. Those who can not perform the Kalevara, they will make it in stone.

MM: Achyutananda Das has written Malika [Malika is the main important thing of Achyutananda Das, in which he has forecasted many things.] Why did he write malika?

AM: Aagyan.

MM: For what audience [sunaiba pain] did he write it?

AM: No —

MM: He wrote it for Jaganath to hear it.

AM: No. Jaganath has told him that and he has written. Why will he tell it to Jaganath to listen? The meaning [artha] of the word ‘malika’ is [malika sabdara] “Manabikatara Sanchara taku Juge Juge Sthiti rakhiba.” [Mana bikatara (humanity) sanchara (to spread) juge juge (from age to age) sthiti (present)], for which malika has been created [srusti hoichhi].

MM: Achha, whatever little I know, I shall tell that. ‘Malika’ — Mali is an object which we wear around our neck.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: ‘Ka’ — Akara, Sakara, Sanjoga, Akara Brahma Rupascha [Skt. When we put the akara (diacritic vertical) on ‘Ka’ (kaw), akara is sakara (the akara has a form); So akara then becomes (or is converted to Brahman rupa). [Malika. When we add the ‘Ka (with akara)’ with Mali (the garland) it becomes the form of Brahman, which then added to the Mali, then is capable of predicting the future.] All these things are there. If you put the Mali around your neck, your concentration [ekagrata] will intensify [badhe]. This Malika, whatever we have, it was written by Achyutananda Das p. 15 to for Jaganath to hear [sunaiba pai]. I have heard this. I am an uneducated [murkha loka], I do not know anything regarding this [bisayare].

AM: all right. You will see malika, all malikas [pratyeka malika], Jaganath has said and Mahapurusha has written. In many places it is written that Aagyan, I am a foolish [pamara] unintelligent [mudha], I do not know anything. Whatever You [Jaganath] have said, I am only writing that.

MM: In your Nava gurjari [another book written by Achyutananda Das], there is Sarana Panjara [sarana, to take his shelter, devotional prayers].

AM: Sarana Panjara is there.

MM: In that he has prayed to [prathana karichhanti] Jaganath. In that [if you read it] tears will come from out of your eyes [akhiru luha khasi padiba]. “Jyestha Sukala Ekadasi, Tahinki mo asa [my hope] [for that] — Abhaya [fearless] charane [feet] magai [beg] mora ehi bharasa [this is my only wish (hope, desire)].” [Jyestha Sukala Ekadasi, I am longing for that day; at your fearless feet I beg, this is my only hope] [Achyutananda Das is praying to die on this day]. Then he said “am praying at the fearless feet of Jaganath; Oh God, give me the eleventh day of bright half of Jyestha.” I said [when I read that verse], “Oh Lord [dian], you did not leave your body [deha tyaga (leave) kari anthile] on that ekadasi dina? You did it on the full moon day. No, that is wrongly written in Asta Gurjari. That will be the full moon day. He sat in his samadhi on the eleventh day. A cloth was put to cover him [luga ghodai diagala]. The eleventh day, twelfth day [dwadasi], thirteenth day [trayodasi[, fourteenth day [chaturdasi, and the full moon day [purnami]. On the purnami all his disciples gathered there, disciples were there from among Hadis, from among Pathans, Hindu disciples. Many types of disciples were there. They said that if our guru leaves his body we will take that and we will perform the last rights [sanskara karibu] according to our custom [ama matare]. The Pathans said, we will perform the rites as per our custom. Different people said different [bhinia loka bhibina prakare kahile]. Then when the lifted the cloth, the found nothing was there [deki delaru kichhi nahi]. The sunya purusha disappeared in sunya.

AM: This story, what have you collected [sangraha] concerning [bisayare] the birth [janma] of Mahapurusha Achyutananda?

MM: Whatever I have read from the books. I am uneducated [murkha; ignorant] I do not know anything. Whatever I have understood, I have done so by asking [pachari] all of you [apana mananku] [people like him]. Achyutananda Das’ father was a sevak in Puri Jaganatha temple. He was an employees [karmachari: not actually sevak] , not a sevak, he was an employee. His name was Dinabandhu Khuntia.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: He and his wife, husband wife were staying there. They did not have any child. So both [ubhaye] of them would always go and tell it to Jaganatha. They would say, “Of God [diantu], please give us a child.” One day they dreamt that tomorrow morning you stand behind my Garuda pillar. You will be standing at it back [pachhare (back) chhida (standing) hoi], you will see that a child will appear before you for one ‘second’ [gote muhurta] and will go away. And he will be your son.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: So he was Achyutananda Das. This is what I have heard.

AM: No, no, that is the fact [ghatana]. There is a slight difference [olam bilam — “little this side or that side”]. Mahapurusha is the part of Jaganatha’s body [ansa bisesa] only [matra]. Because up to this time [parjyanta] many learned people [gyani loka] have been born, many divine sages [debarsi], many Brahmin [Brahmarsi] have been born, but before this, the word ‘Mahapurusha’ is not applied is not applied to anyone. There is only one reason [karana] — that he was not born from his mother’s womb [ajoni sambhuta]. He was not born from the womb [jonigata janma tankara nahi]. “Mahapurusha te Charanara Bindum”. [Mahapurusha I salute Thy feet]. So he is the Mahapurusha.

MM: “Bande Mahapurusha te Charanara Bindum” [bande, pray you, am praying].

AM: Aagyan. So, one thing is that, as he was not born from his mother’s womb, before his name the word “Mahapurusha” [sabdata rahichhi] has been affixed. Until today, whomever you find, the yogis, rishis and munis, etc. [ityadi], none of them are called “Mahapurusha”.

MM: I said, “Oh God, we will write here [at Jhinti, at that temple], “Bande Purushotamam” [I pray you; Purushotamam, a name of Jaganatha or Vishnu, also means the best of men; utoma, best].

P?? [or MM continued]: He said, no, no —

MM: “Why did you write that, you write “Bande Mahapurusha te Charanara Bindum”.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: So tears will come from your eyes [luha khasi padiba agnya].

AM: Mahapurusha was always thinking himself [nijaku] to be most [ati] humble [hina] and negligible [naganya], this he kept within his though [chintadhara bhitare rakhichhanti].

MM: “Foolish Achyuta is speaking”.

AM: Aagyan.

MM: “I am poor [dina] Achyuta speaking, poor Achyuta, foolish Achyuta.”

AM: So, this is Mahapurusha. He did not have the mark [lakshyana, mark, symbol] of getting birth from the womb [joni janma gata lakshyana]. Dinabandu Khuntia was his father. He is adopted [posya putra].

MM: Dinabandu Khuntia was an adopted son?

AM: No, no. Dinabandu Khuntia accepted Mahapurusha as his adopted son [posyaputra hisabare (as, calculation) ghrahana (accepted) kariba: accepted him as adopted son]. He was not an employee [karmachari]. Out of love and affection [sradhare] he sweeps [jhadu mariba] the outer door [bahara dwara] of Jaganath temple whenever Dinabandu Khuntia goes to Puri. But after many days when they didn’t have any [child], both the husband and wife thought that “our time went away” [they became old]. At that time they were 45 years old. There is no hope [au ta ye nahi]. Then what is the gain [labha kana hela] of sweeping [jhadu (broom) olai, olaiba, to sweep] the temple every day throughout our life. So according to the words of his wife [katha anusare], Dinabandhu huntia agreed [raji hoikari] and both of them, fell down in surrender [trahi padile] [went to the temple and fell down flat before the God, took his shelter], only to get a child. At last [seare] what happened, after trahi for 29 days, they got the direction [nirdesha], when you will take a bath [ghadoila] near the aruna sthamba [sun pillar; it was originally at Konaraka; it was brought to Puri temple after decline of Konaraka temple] [place where aruna pillar now stands at Puri temple was believed to at one time on the shore of the sea] [now stands just at the main entrance of the temple; at the outside] [alternative translation is “when the aruna pillar is bathed], the boy who will come and embrace you and will call you as “Father”, he will be your son. It means [ta artha] that nowadays, where the present aruna pillar stands, at that time, 500 years before, that was the sea [seita samudra thila]. When he was taking his bath there, as a small child, Achyutananda came and called him “Father”. He took him to his village. His village was Tilakana [Kataka district near Nemala].

MM: Near Nemala, in the middle [madhyare of the delta [trikona bhumi, triangle] of Chitratpala and Luni river [nadi].

AM: Aagyan. He spent there most of the time of his life. Then Dinabandhu Khuntia died. After this, he again came back to Puri.

MM: Achyutananda Das has mathas in different places in Orissa. Which place does he like most [tanku besi bhala lage]?


The village of Kakatpur in relation to Puri and Bhubaneswar.

AM: The most favorite [sabutharu priya jaga] place of Mahapurusha is Puri.

MM: Puri, the Blue Stone [Hill, Mountain]. Purushottam Nilakandara [Puri temple is situated on what was once a mountain].

AM: This is his foremost [first, primary] favorite [prathama priya jaga]. But the second most favorite place is Nemala.

MM: Ekangra muni ashrama, Padma Bana, Nemala bata [banyan tree]. [Achyuta said in the Jhinti pothi that Nemal attracts him like a magnet attracts iron because that was the seat Ekangra Muni; he called the place lotus forest, there was a big banyan tree there where Achyutananda Das took his samadhi].

AM: Aagyan. So Nemal is also — these two places are his favorite places. Again [ahuri) many other places are there.

MM: Has anything come out about your place? That this is also a favorite place [priya jaga].

AM: Yes, Aagyan. Or else why was the ashram constructed there? It is there in Prachi Mahatma [the name of a book, a purana. Near Kakatapur there is a river named Prachi. That is a very sacred river. Many things have been written about the river in a book, the Prachi Mahatma: a Purana is a collection of oral knowledge about a particular place (concerning the sacred significance) place or the activities of a particular deity]. Brahma was performing his yoga sadhana sitting on a stone. Mahapurusha did his trikala sadhana [three times, present, past and future; he can tell everything about present, past and future]. Mahapurusha could not achieve [parila] that siddhi. When he did not achieve siddhi, he went out [baharile, went out, set out] to kalpa bata [the ancient banyan tree] [kalpa, measure of time, very old, ancient], to kill himself [atma hatya karibaku]. At that time, Jaganath and Laxmi both were sitting on the Chhayabata [another Banyan tree inside the Puri Jaganath temple compound] and looking at the Mahapurusha. So he was telling them, crying, “Why shall I keep this life? You have sent me to do some work. But I am so unfit [adhama] that I am not able to do that work. Then why shall I keep this life?” So Jaganath told him, “Don’t worry, if you go to the Prachi Dhama [dhama, kshetra, sthana are gradations of sacred place, in order of intensity] and to Japa kshetra [in Prachi]. If you go there and perform japa on the japa stone [japa prasthara], you will achieve Trikala siddhi. After many a search, he located the stone. He achieved siddhi by sitting on that stone. During that sadhana, he was staying here in this ashram. He has written this in his malika.

MM: When you constructed your ashram here. earth must have been dug. At that time, were any remnants [dhwansa basesa: dhwansa is complete destruction, basesa the remains] here?

AM: Aagyan. No remnants were found, only a small well was there.

MM: That means there was something here.

AM: Now that well was found half-dug. Only that well was here.

MM: In your ashram, do you conduct any daily puja? Excepting the puja for Jaganath, anything for Achyutananda?

AM: Of the Mahapurusha? There is the Sunya Asana [seat] of the Mahapurusha there, where the well is situated. You must have seen. Close to it [se agare] some Tulasi trees have been planted in a place like a circle [gote golai (circle) hoikari].

MM: Yes, yes. What is that?

AM: Well [bamphi]. Near that well, we keep his wooden sandal [paduka] and worship.

MM: In your pothi, writing comes only in Oriya? Or Oriya, Hindi, Telugu, etc.?

AM: No, Aagyan. Only Oriya and Sanskrit.

MM: It comes in Sanskrit? I once asked [means Achyuta], where are your pothis? He said, it is within the Sunya Kupa [well, a larger well, like the one Arta Baba had at Konarak] of Puri [there are many sacred wells in Puri]. [water of that well is used exclusively for the deity; no outsider is allowed to draw water from that well], in Jajpur town, Phulbani town, there one Brahmin will get the pothi. That will take place in Phulbani, in such and such place in Konarak.

AM: The pothi [grantha; again a difference in degree, grantha ia a voluminous one; pothi is the Oriya word] of Mahapurusha is everywhere.

MM: It is in the Himalayas. So how is it there in the Himalayas? It is snowing there, soil erosion is taking place there. There are no almiras there.

AM: Aagyan, I am telling you about my experience of this year. I have got one pothi this year, of the Mahapurusha from Gupteswara [in Jeypur]. Of course [abasya] I have not got that, some one else has got it. Mahapurusha directed me to help him in his sadhana. “If you do that, he will do my work. And he will get a pothi from Gupteswar.” I taught that man all the sadhana and he did it.

MM: Did you go there?

AM: Aagyan, I stayed there with him from Gundicha to Bahuda [Gundicha is the car festival at Puri (the temple the car goes to), Bahuda (lit. return), the return journey of the car festival; from one to the other is seven days.] He remained the Gupteswara and did his sadhana and I watched him at the door [juare jagi kari thili].

MM: Okay, Thakura has written malika in Oriya, no? Will you please tell me one or two words? I have heard about malika but have never seen it or read it?

AM: Aagyan, tell me which malika. Aagyan, malika, if you tell me, I can sing it for 12 to 14 hours.

MM: No, Agata Bhabisya Malika [Agata (coming) Bhabisya (future)], or is there any other Malika?

AM: There are many malikas. I have learned malikas so much that I can sing it for 12 to 14 hours [ghanta] at a time.

MM: Please tell us something about the Agata Bhabisya Malika. Now, Achyutananda Das wrote malika in which he predicted what will happen when. He said that I have got those things by heart. I said that, why not you recite something so that we will listen.

[Pandit sings a portion of malika here]

MM: Aagyan, when your pothi was not yet started [arambha], at that time, the people of your village [gan gandara loka mane], where did they go for consultation [paramarsa] or to know something [bhuja bhuji]? Like, any koviraj or tantric?

AM: Aagyan, it is there from age to age [juge juge]. What is there — we have read the history [itihasa padhiche] but have not seen that. So if there is no smruti [remembered, orally transmitted knowledge, veda], there origin [udbhava] of sruti [to learn something by hearing] will not be there. So when there is some smruti, the srutikaras [the people who write those things by listening] p. 23. write that differently [bikhipta bhabare (like) lekhante]. So smruti must be there. Like that, in all ages, there are knowledgeable persons [gyani loka] and also the ignorant [agyani]. So the knowledgeable persons and ignorant persons are there in different ages. So when a person suffers from some difficulty [kichhi ta asubidha padile] the require the help of [abasyaka karanti] an advisor [updeshta]. So it is there is all ages.

MM: Aagyan, we took much of your time, so when we will come again, if we come —

AM: Aagyan.

MM: Can we sit inside at the time when you read the pothi and see it?

AM: Aagyan, you will see and read. You can do everything.

MM: If other people will complain [apati]?

AM: We have nothing like that.

MM: We have nothing to do, we will only see.

AM: You will see, read, and whatever you will want. The research wallas, those like you, those who come here, I give them all types of facilities [sabu prakara subidha (facilities; opposite of asubidha)]. Because all others are coming. A group comes from France [panjhe (group)].

MM: Are they coming?

AM: They are always coming, for the last three or four years. They bring instruments like this. I read in Oriya and it comes out in their own language. They don’t feel any difficulty.

MM: When you sang the malika —

AM: Aagyan.

MM: At that time you said, he wrote with a five-pointed pen — Achyutananda wrote malika. There is one point in one pen. In that, if you write ‘A’ one ‘A’ will be written. In a five-pointed pen, if you write ‘A’ then fives ‘A’s’ will be written. So how is it possible?

AM: Aagyan, listen. That is what? Of course, I have seen in the Nemala matha, the pens and stylon [lekhani] with which Mahapurusha writes. There are five pens. One pen is made of gold, on in silver, one in horn [singha], one in iron, and another in lead [sisa]. There are five pens.

MM: If we go there, will Vivekananda Das show that to us?

AM: Yes. It is worshipped there. You will see it. There is no difficulty. There are five pens. So the meaning is not that when Mahapurusha appeared in the form of man [nara rupa-re janma hoithile], was he writing with five pens at the same time, holding those in five fingers? Aagyan, it is not that. There are five mana [pancha mana] and 25 prakruti [pachisi prakruti]. Inside this [body] there are five manas. So the Mahapurusha lost his atma [atmaku hajai deuthile] within the five Mahabhutas. He was losing his own atman within the five Mahabhutas. He was sending [pathauthile] that mana, he was using that pen to express that bhaba. We have in his Brahman Gyana Sangita [or Samhita], he has written:

“Samira tatwa sutra dhara joga
Lauha lekhani huai nijoga
Jadi krodhatama tathya he guru
Raupya lekhani sutra chalu karu
Bhaba tanmaya prema jaladhire
Suvarna lekhani nisruta ta thare
Jadi rasana basana kasana
Singha nishruta kalama lekhana.”

“Wind tatwa
Iron pen is
Oh guru, if the fact is of an angry mood [krodatma]
I write the verse with silver pen
When involved in the feeling of the ocean of love
It springs from the golden pen.”

If it is rasana [juicy], basana [thoughtful??; basa, think something by sitting], kasana [painful]

The writing flows from the horn pen [kalama]

He has written that whatever feeling arose him [jeun bhabhata tankara Jagratha heuthila], he was expressing that feeling with that pen.

Man: Is it written, the five-pointed pen?

MM: I asked this to God [dianku], “Oh God, you were writing with a five-pointed pen, this I read from a book. In a book by the weekly of Prajatantra. One weekly comes out [bahare].

AM: Aagyan.

MM: In that, five to seven or eight years before, one writing came out on Achyutananda. I said, “Oh God, how did you write with a five-pointed pen?” [It came out in the pothi] “Pragalbha kim na badati; chhagala kim na khadati?” [What will a madman not say; what will a goat not eat?” If you write with a five-pointed pen, there will be five ‘A’s’. How is that possible [sambhava]?

AM: The theoretical meaning [tatwika artha] of this is that, when he lost his mana in the pancha mahabhuta, he was — At that time when he was writing in an angry mood [ragara rasa], then he was writing with the lead pen. When he was writing ‘jamaka’, when he speaks jamaka [joking exchanges; in grammar books there is a chapter on joking exchanges], joking things [majalia jinisa; e.g. as grandparents and grandchildren joke] [there is a traditional way of writing jamaka, joking verbal exchanges; this is one of the traditional arts that Achyutananda had mastered]. At that time he was writing with his copper [tamra] pen. Like this, everything was written according to his feeling [bhaba anusare].

MM: This is a very wonderful thing [ascharya (wonderful, astonishing) janaka katha]. Aagyan, people from outside Orissa do not know about this.

AM: No, Aagyan. I am telling you my experience in Nepal. There are many people in Nepal who are fond of malika [malika priya loka]. Yes, Aagyan.

MM: There must be some in Delhi.

AM: I have not gone to Delhi. I am not telling about Delhi. but in Nepal I saw the rickshaw ballas. We went in a rickshaw. We were going in a rickshaw, we are going to Ganduki to bring Salagrama. When we were going to Ganduki, I sat down and sang malika. When I sang malika, the rickshaw walla brought out a book [gote bohi bahara]. My malika tallied [mela khauchi; mela, fair, gathering] with [sathire]. He then asked, where did you get it. [. . .] This is said in our book here.

MM: Is Ganduki river flowing near the Mahadev temple? Is it flowing on that side?

AM: No, no.

MM: That is not?

AM: That is not Ganduki. Ganduki is 80 kilometers from Nepal, in the jungle.

MM: Salagram.